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Ability to Give Bonuses...

 
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Neo
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 12:42 am    Post subject: Ability to Give Bonuses... Reply with quote

I think there should be a easy way to bonus people that showed up and stuck it out the whole raid or for doing something uncommon...

Not sure how the numbers are working but it would be nice if the numbers actually represented # of raids attended vs. their random roll... Or either add another variable that can list them (almost like DKP but it's still considered rotational)

So for instance, we have people leave early in a raid, we can bonus those that stuck it out by giving them 2 extra points... (Thus maybe possibly putting them ahead of others or even those that left early.)

Everything else still functions the same pretty much other than that...
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Joehunk



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 8:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is something SK was explicitly not designed for. I hear rumors of some people having success with bonus systems, but can't confirm or deny how well they work in practice. All I can tell you is that, when we designed SK, we explicitly called out that it was a loot system and nothing else, not a motivation to play, a reward system, or a system for punishment.

That being said, the closest thing to an attendance reward system I have heard of that sounds like it might work okay is a couple guilds that let people with over some % of attendance win items over people with below that amount of attendance, even though the low-attending people are higher on the list. In other words, you first call for bids from the people with the higher attendance, then if no one bids, lower attending people can.

But, if you are looking for a loot system that allows a lot of flexibility in rewarding/penalizing players for this or that, inflationary DKP is really the only way to go.
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Joehunk



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

P.S. I added something to the effect of the above to the FAQ, since a lot of folks new to SK seem to be searching for a way to make it function like inflationary DKP. Short answer: it doesn't.
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Neo
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 10:36 am    Post subject: Yes... I love the interface... Reply with quote

The interface is wonderful...

I wish there was a way to convert this over to work with DKP instead of Rolls...

Because the issue we run into here lately... Lemme give you an example...

JoeTank shows up to all the raids for the most part and has most his gear but waiting for 1 item in MC but is in position 6... He's been showing up to BWL and well, our BWL runs have not been very successful (no loot drops) but he put time and effort into making it there...

Next week, a new warrior comes up the list from starting in the guild not too long ago and comes to MC and course, MC drops a lot of loot, and woops, JoeTank missed out this raid due to having to work late and the MC raid is full... The loot drops in a way and people show up where he ends up SKIPPING over JoeTank to the number 4 position making him more eligible for this piece of look that JoeTank been wanting forever but do to special circumstance, missed this one raid...

So we trying to figure a fix... We are wanting to use DKP but we love the ease of SK... But lotta people sort of unhappy with the idea that instances like this are happening...

Instance #2... JoeMage been waiting for his pants to drop off rag but he could use a couple other items in MC lets say the Mana Igniting Cord... Another mage new to the guild of a few weeks or so has been running MC joins SK finally... An MC runs comes where the Mana Igniting Cord does fall... He has to take the gamble of either passing or taking it... Course, he takes it because you can't risk letting it pass... Then we get to Rag, he drops and guess what? Mage T2 pants and they go to WHO???? the FNG???

OK... I love the SK interface.. Love what you did... I think it would nice if there was a DKP version of it... Instead of rolling you use DKP and it syncs the same to keep track between officers... Simple interface where I can hit a button and enter in a number of say "10" and hit the button and it automatically adds 10 DKP to everyone in the raid... You can see the order of everyone in the raid by how much dkp they have... Instead of sending a word "Bid" to the SK leader, you send a number to him on how much they wanna bid of their DKP... when they suicide, they lose that particular amount if they bidded more than anyone else... You have both silent bidding or raid announce bidding...

It would rule... I wish I could program, I'd modify this myself and do it... haha...
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Joehunk



Joined: 06 May 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think there are probably lots of things you can do for this. Maybe establish a percentage of attendance to BWL that gives you loot preference. We did a similar thing with alts...if someone brought an alt, then mains could always get loot before the alt even if the alt was higher on the list. We just asked mains to bid first, and if no one bids, then we ask for alts. You could say that if you have more than 50% BWL attendance, you can always get loot over someone with lower than that, even if you are lower on the list. As for the mana igniting cord example, it's probably a good plan to consider Rag pants the same as BWL loot, because they kinda are.

There is, in fact, an open feature request to support this in the mod (for now you would have to do it manually)...see the feature requests sticky post, and look for the feature called "loot classes."

Anyway let me just say that it's important for you to control your loot system, not the other way around. Trying to munge SK into inflationary DKP will not work: they are about as diametrically opposed as you can get. But you can make minor modifications that will do what you want, I think.

Also, let me get philosophical on you here: you should be happy when your new members get uber loot. Hopefully, if you recruited them, they are in it for the long haul. If they're not, then SK is the wrong loot system for you. If they are, then them getting the uber loot means they will be all that much more able to contribute positively to your raids, and hopefully get some loot dropping in BWL!!!
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Neo
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, we are happy we are getting people geared...

But also there is that turn over rate... We had a recent warrior win something in a very similar fashion and he left... Where as if we think if there was a sense of having to "work" a little for it, 1 of 2 things would have happened... If he was just a loot happy person not worried about guild progression, he would probably gotten frustrated in waiting and left guild early or 2, he would have been willing to put in effort and little more time in earning them... So yeah, having a 2 week delay before even being put on the SK has been applied recently due to this small incident because was just a good MC run and by time we got to Rag, he was already at the top in first run when normally it can take a few weeks... Freak happening... We had thought about suggesting you earn pants in a progressive state... (unless everyone already has their pants) For example, you cannot win T2 pants till you get your T1 or something similar (Bloodsoaked ZG Pants), this of course null in special cases where you are new MT or everyone else already got their T2 pants...

We try to always recruit people for the long haul but first impressions tend to be masked a lot... Many times you don't really get to know a player till around a few weeks or month after you have them in the guild and their intentions...

Lotta silly politics... Where has the 'game' gone..? This why I like so far what you have come across in implementing here, I'd like to see some various versions of it to fit other facets of guilds personas...

I understand implying rules and rules but then again, forcing so many almost makes an entirely different loot system... Sort of... The guild I'm in is trying to avoid all the 'paperwork' involved in heavy configured systems although I know there has to be some to a degree... I'm merely researching it, not a leader myself in this particular guild I'm in now but in close with a few of the leaders...

As far as SK and DKP, yeah, they are VERY different, you are correct... I just like your interface and ease of use... The syncronizing with other SK leaders (officers), and more.... The ease to send tell to someone with a bid and it all function through the mod... I seen a few DKP version of mods that work in WoW but none are as simplified as this interface is... They even try to take DKP too far by implementing too much... As we aren't interested in anything too fancy... Just something that is a little secure to prevent "padding" and something everyone can see and is easily trackable via a UI interface in-game... No 'paperwork' as they put it when they adopted the SK addon... Smile

So I know to some stand point it would be almost a complete redesign on the backend on the programming of how the numbers work, but you would be my hero... haha... And I think it's a mod probably a lot of people would adopt due to it's ease...

Smile
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Joehunk



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
But also there is that turn over rate... We had a recent warrior win something in a very similar fashion and he left

Turnover rate is the achilles heel of SK, no question. It worked well in our guild because we had VERY small turnover. Still we had 1 or 2 incidents over the course of about 18 months of someone ganking some nice loot and splitting. But I would say if the metric by which you judge a loot system is how many times in a given time span that it produces unsatisfactory results, 2 incidents in 1.5 years is pretty good.

A few things about turnover rate:
1. You will never have zero turnover, but as guild leaders, it is your job to structure your recruiting policies and keep your guild fun enough that turnover is low. If turnover is low, then bad loot incidents involving turnover will be rare. Not absent, but rare enough that they can safely be ignored in the grand scheme of things.

2. Any loot system that is bulletproof against turnover will bear very little resemblance to SK. If you are going to use SK, you need to be prepared to be satisfied with "not perfect, but good enough." SK consciously sacrifices bulletproofness to achieve all the advantages you mentioned above.

3. I would guess that the 50% BWL attendance thing I mentioned above will go a long way toward mitigating loot incidents related to turnover. If you want to stay within the framework of SK, look for simple, low-hanging-fruit type solutions, not radical ones.
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Neo
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 2:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know where we get them then because we actually have quite a full week and do all sorts of instances and more with helpful guildies even available to help out on .5 quests and much more... I know, I've ran a few myself...

So not sure, maybe just a bad period of time with expansion releasing... People want to get what they can...

But they have a few ideas of actually categorizing (Ranking) the guild out by % attendance now... Certain rank has priority of loot over another rank... Then uses SK to decide within the ranks...

The guild is actually a bunch of friends from another guild that did break up that decided to give it a go... Think most the leaders don't have much former experience with running one and it's a learning process... As far as all of us that came with the other guild, we aren't having many issues with each other, mainly fulfilling the sudden needs of the new...

Just yesterday we had a guy get upset because he worked and had to take 2 weeks off and didn't like how he 'might' not be getting loot when he gets back... And we were like "it's all in how it falls"... There's just some you can't please and cater to and we've been finding them... So by making the loot rules a little stiff from the get go, I think this group of individuals are sort of sorted out before they even get in once they see how the loot is done...

We have a few individuals that have been at the guild for a while now but they may attend 25% of the 40 man raids and none of the 20 mans... We mentioned in our guild website about this idea of using ranks and % attendance to rewards others and they blew up... ??? What's that about?

What I have learned from being in both the hardcore and casual guilds... It's nearly impossible to cater to both...
You will always step on toes on decisions you make to benefit the guilds goals in mind.

The biggest thing I have found though, that is very important, is that it's always better to go towards favoring the raider not the casual to progress... The casual will still win in the end... This means more loot more dungeons and faster progress from the guild... The only issue is that they won't gear right away they might have to wait a bit till the main core set of raiders get theirs first, but still, eventually they will get theirs and since we are progressing, they will get more... If you cater to the casual, progress is slower, if at all, people get disgruntled and leave including geared people wanting progress and it becomes a larger road block of having to regear those people to move again...

That's my observation at least...


And that's sort of where the guild is sitting at now... they trying to please all simultaneously and it's not working all too well... Several leaders are afraid to make the move to % attendance because they don't wanna upset people... I think it's going to happen anyway...
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Joehunk



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hate to keep beating the same dead horse, but you keep critting me with these walls o' text, and I keep having the same advice. Establish loot classes based on attendance.

We actually have one guy in this guild, who was our MT back in BWL days, who had a Horde char on another server, whose guild (by total coincidence) used SK too. They had the same opinion as you: it's better for the guild to favor raiders over casuals. So, they simply said if you have greater than 40% overall attendance, you can always get loot before people with less, even if you are lower on the list. People with >= 40% bid first, then if no one bids, people with < 40% bid. Very simple, and it works. May make your casuals a little unhappy, but at the end of the day you have to pick what's best for your guild and stick to your guns, living with the fact that SOMEONE will be pissed. Please try something like this out and let me know how it works before I am crushed under the weight of another Wall o' Text!
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Zodius
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 6:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hmm.... then ever thought of implementing an attendance plugin to SK as additional feature? that shows you the attendance % of the person next to their name (easier for RL's navigation)
or maybe integrate it so it can import attendance data more easily?

just some suggestion cos to my knowledge, currently there's no addon that helps to record attendance and most are done manually (I maybe wrong here)

of cos if this means it'll be too troublesome/too much work, then may consider it for future release of SK or hoping someone will write such addon for support.

WOW 2.0 patch up is more important now Smile
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Joehunk



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
hmm.... then ever thought of implementing an attendance plugin to SK as additional feature?


From the "feature requests" sticky post:

Quote:
Feature:
Display "last seen" date for players, or provide some way of tracking attendance.
Status: Accepted


So that would be a yes. Also, CT Raid tracker is a mod that tracks attendance, but a) is not ported to the patch yet, and b) shows who was on what day, but does not provide a %. Providing a % is actually non-trivial since you have to have some way of knowing when a raid begins and ends, and compensate for even the person running the mod as master not being there all the time.
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